SPIEGEL Interview with Martin Schulz: ‘The Trump Approach Will Never Be Our Approach’

SPIEGEL: Mr. Schulz, are we in agreement that your assignment as a chancellor claimant for a Social Democrats (SPD) and your designation as conduct of a celebration were some-more about a party’s picture and reduction about your domestic objectives?

Schulz: No. But it has turn unequivocally apparent that a proceed we use politics is seen in a certain light. Because in times of upheaval, people wish for zero some-more than restraint and sincerity. The beliefs of a SPD have remained a same for 150 years: democracy, tellurian dignity, probity and inclusion. We will never change those principles.

SPIEGEL: The SPD is now roving a call of euphoria. Only one chairman seems not to be enjoying it: your prototype Sigmar Gabriel, who stepped down to concede we to take a reins. Can we know given he feels differently?

Schulz: In a story of German domestic parties, it is a initial time that an obligatory celebration arch and clamp chancellor has subordinated his possess aspiration on a motive that someone else stood a improved probability of being elected. we see that as a surpassing proof of character.

SPIEGEL: Certainly. But that wasn’t a question.

Schulz: But that was my answer.

SPIEGEL: Gabriel announced his preference to renounce from a care of a SPD in a extensive pronounce with a newsmagazine Stern. He didn’t forewarn anybody before to a announcement of a interview, not even you. Do we consider that was a right proceed to hoop it?

Schulz: we discussed my views about that with him personally. we don’t see a need to do so again in an pronounce with SPIEGEL.

SPIEGEL: Following his resignation, Sigmar Gabriel was named unfamiliar apportion for a remaining months until a ubiquitous choosing in September, replacing Frank-Walter Steinmeier, who has been selected to turn Germany’s president. Gabriel has indicated he would like to sojourn in that purpose following a election. Are we amenable?

Schulz: His enterprise is distinct when we take over such an office. But we consider we am going to have to defect Sigmar on this point. We are, after all, going to win a choosing and we am going to turn German chancellor. And given we doubt that we are going to be means to win an extensive majority, it seems expected that a bloc partner will explain a unfamiliar apportion post.

SPIEGEL: Have we already discussed that with him?

Schulz: we would ask for your bargain that we initial wish to win a German election.

SPIEGEL: One of a many critical issues opposed a republic stays interloper policy. Are we usually as bargain of Angela Merkel’s proceed to a interloper emanate as many Social Democrats are?

Schulz: we trust that we, as a largest European Union member state, found a scold response in an ancestral situation. But one thing is clear: The explain done by Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán that a interloper doubt is a German problem is incorrect. It is a European problem. The fact that someone like Orbán, who rejects any kind of oneness with a German conduct of government, is perceived as a guest of honour by a Christian Social Union (eds. note: a Bavarian sister celebration to Merkel’s Christian Democrats) and hailed for his function speaks volumes. It shows that on this question, there is frequency any common belligerent between a CSU and a CDU.

• 

  The essay we are reading creatively seemed in German in emanate 6/2017 (February 4, 2017) of DER SPIEGEL.

• FAQ: Everything You Need to Know about DER SPIEGEL
• Reprints: How To License SPIEGEL Articles

SPIEGEL: Once again: Are we beholden to Ms. Merkel for her charitable stance?

Schulz: we am beholden to a Germans in general, quite those who displayed constant loyalty to a refugees and who continue to do so.

SPIEGEL: On a interloper issue, Merkel followed a charitable proceed that a Social Democrats supported. How do we intend to pull a eminence between yourself and a chancellor during a campaign?

Schulz: Your perspective of politics, gentlemen, is too tactical. That’s not how we think. We have to remonstrate people that we don’t merely act out of tactical considerations, yet as a effect of a low philosophy we hold. I, during least, find it good that Germany over a charitable commitments in a interloper issue.

SPIEGEL: No challenger can win an choosing if he represents a same positions as a incumbent.

Schulz: There are, of course, vast differences between us. But we would never conflict somebody usually given they go to a opposite party. Ms. Merkel’s try to benefaction herself as a Social Democrat was a crafty move. But it’s not operative anymore. The groups between a CDU and CSU have simply turn too good for that. The differences between a conduct of a CDU and her possess celebration are too good for that. Merkel’s fake advertising, with that we have lived for some time, contingency be suggested for what it is.

SPIEGEL: How can we be so sure?

Schulz: Ms. Merkel has prolonged followed a tactic of asymmetrical demobilization. She wanted to keep intensity SPD electorate from casting their votes. What we have seen in new days is a remobilization of those who had been asymmetrically demobilized, as one competence contend in poetic sociologist language.

SPIEGEL: In a interloper crisis, Sigmar Gabriel was lustful of adopting terms with a disturbed connotation, like “upper limit” and others, in an try to distinction from a widespread offend with Merkel’s policies. Can we order out a probability that we competence tumble plant to a identical temptation?

Schulz: we won’t concede myself to be tempted. And we can be certain that we won’t hearing with disturbed terms.

SPIEGEL: Hardly any of your statements have been quoted by your adversaries as mostly as your matter from Jun 2016 when we said: “What a refugees move to us is some-more profitable than gold. It is something that we have mislaid somewhere along a proceed in a final few years. It is a steadfast faith in a dream of Europe.” Do we still reason loyal to that statement?

Schulz: Of march we do. we can even inject some-more pathos.

SPIEGEL: Go for it.

Schulz: The dream of Europe is a segment of leisure and peace, of security, law, democracy, toleration and mutual respect. If we demeanour into a faces of a refugees we will see this dream. These are people who are journey from war, hate, assault and astray systems.

SPIEGEL: In your debate during SPD domicile in Berlin a week ago Sunday, we criticized disturbed parties as being “rat catchers.” Do we unequivocally consider that we can move people behind to a SPD from a disturbed populist Alternative for Germany (AfD) celebration by pursuit them rats?

Schulz: we accept this critique That is not a sense we wanted to create. we was referring to a picture of a Pied Piper of Hamelin, who led people to their doom with his charming summons song. What we wanted to contend is this: The dangerous deification of a republic state, and a baiting of minorities that goes along with it, releases an anti-democratic energy. But we are right, a devise wasn’t a good one.

SPIEGEL: Are we carefree of convincing electorate who have drifted to a AfD to lapse to a SPD or have we created them off?

Schulz: Many who have voted for a AfD, or who intend to do so, aren’t doing so given they are dyed-in-the-wool enemies of democracy. Rather, they are desperate. Of march we wish to win them back. But we don’t wish to pronounce with dangerous people like (right-wing rabble-rouser Björn) Höcke or (party conduct Frauke) Petry. A chairman who calls a Holocaust commemorative a relic to contrition and who calls for a annulment in Germany’s enlightenment of memory does not go in a German parliament. (Eds. note: In a argumentative debate in January, Björn Höcke, an AfD member of state council in Thuringia, spoke extensively of his enterprise for Germany to stop focusing so many on a chronological shame for a Holocaust.)

SPIEGEL: On a renouned radio pronounce uncover “Anne Will,” we spoke of people who “attack a women” on open squares, a transparent anxiety to a widespread passionate assaults perpetrated by foreigners of North African skirmish in perfume on New Year’s Eve 2015. That is dangerously tighten to adopting a populist lingo used by a right wing.

Schulz: No. But we have to face adult to such things. When a well-organized organisation of immature organisation attacks women, we have to pronounce about it clearly.

SPIEGEL: Are we a populist?

Schulz: I’m not a populist. But we try to benefaction difficult issues in such a proceed that people know where we stand. In all of my encounters with voters, we have frequently been confronted with dual points of critique. First: You politicians are all a same! Second: You politicians might be vocalization German, yet we still don’t know you! My favorite instance is a famous “fine ounce” of gold. It is constantly mentioned in a news, yet nobody knows what a excellent unit is. we had to demeanour it adult too. That is given we try to pronounce in a demeanour that allows people to tell me detached from my domestic adversaries. And we pronounce in a demeanour that a people can understand. For me, that isn’t populism.

SPIEGEL: You intend to make “greater fairness” a executive emanate of your campaign. Linguistically, during least, that is a rather worn-out phrase.

Schulz: I don’t consider it is ragged out during all. The doubt of governmental integrity is always pertinent.

SPIEGEL: Is Germany a satisfactory country?

Schulz: No. Germany is not a satisfactory country. Millions of people trust that things aren’t satisfactory in this country. Company boost and reward payments have increasing during a same rate as unsafe practice situations.

SPIEGEL: How could such a growth take place? The SPD has always stood for some-more integrity and it has been partial of a supervision for 14 of a final 18 years.

Schulz: If we had always been in a infancy during those years, we would be offer along. In a Grand Coalition (eds. note: a SPD is now a youth bloc partner to Merkel’s conservatives in a pairing called a “Grand Coalition”) we unfortunately haven’t always been means to exercise a platforms one-to-one.

SPIEGEL: In a early 2000s, SPD Chancellor Gerhard Schröder introduced tough and argumentative cuts to Germany’s gratification and recession assist programs, a remodel package famous as Agenda 2010. Was that a mistake in hindsight?

Schulz: In a Old Testament, Solomon preaches that “to all there is a deteriorate and a time to each purpose underneath a heaven.” In 2003, 14 years ago, a Agenda was a scold response to a proviso of stagnation. On that issue, we always upheld Gerhard Schröder. The fact that now we have record practice is also interjection to Gerhard Schröder. But we have also done mistakes. We should have introduced a smallest salary during a same time and taxed a super-rich during a aloft rate. Because we didn’t do that, many got a sense that a reforms were unfair. The Agenda was fitting for a country, yet a SPD suffered poignant material repairs as a result. It is now time to concentration on fairness.

SPIEGEL: In times of globalization and digitalization, where politics can no longer essay change in many areas, how can we pledge larger fairness?

Schulz: we can't pledge people extensive fairness. we can usually pledge that we will do all in my energy to secure integrity or emanate a larger grade of fairness. The aged elemental beliefs contingency continue to apply, even in a changing society: Democracy knows conjunction master nor slave. Equal preparation opportunities for all, no matter where they come from and no matter who their relatives are. Equal entrance as good when it comes to digitalization.

SPIEGEL: That sounds good enough, yet it’s also rather ambiguous. Let’s be a bit some-more concrete. How do we intend to extent a series of proxy jobs and singular contracts?

Schulz: Labor Minister Andrea Nahles (SPD) has already achieved a lot in that regard. We could extent a admissibility of proxy and singular work to a many larger grade if we had a required parliamentary majorities to do so.

SPIEGEL: How do we intend to extent a number?

Schulz: We need to hurl behind unsafe practice models. Temporary and singular contracts were essentially seen as a proceed of introducing some-more coherence so as to overpass durations of need in certain phases of production. Some employers have taken advantage of a indication to pull down wages. In general, we contingency essay for equal compensate for equal work.

SPIEGEL: How high do we consider a smallest salary contingency be to pledge a cool living?

Schulz: At slightest we now have a smallest wage. we am some-more disturbed about a fact that it is still frequently ignored, infrequently with rapist intent. We have to exercise some-more controls; a organisation obliged contingency turn some-more active.

SPIEGEL: Is a stream limit taxation rate of 42 percent fair? Back when Helmut Kohl was chancellor, it was as high as 53 percent.

Schulz: We positively have to boost a taxation of poignant wealth. But I’m not meddlesome in regulating argumentative terms like resources taxation or estate tax. It’s a element that’s critical to me. And that is: People who work tough for their income can't be placed in a worse position that those who concede their income to work for them.

SPIEGEL: Could we be a bit some-more specific?

Schulz: The share of resources hold by a minority is many larger than a share hold by a majority. We have to pull a possess conclusions from that and it has to change. Regarding petrify proposals for opposed a issue, we have a operative organisation in a celebration addressing a issue. we don’t intend to get forward of them in this interview.

SPIEGEL: Does Germany need a resources tax?

Schulz: Please know that we initial wish to pronounce with people in a SPD who are building a horizon of a taxation concept.

SPIEGEL: Among leftists, there is a good bargain of magnetism for a judgment of an umbrella simple income. Is that an thought that we find attractive?

Schulz: we trust that cool work is a value in itself. As a celebration of labor, a SPD contingency work together with a unions to safeguard that people can make a vital with their work. That is given we am not a proponent of a judgment of umbrella simple income. we am, however, unequivocally many in preference of decent salary agreements, secure and durability jobs, worker appearance in decision-making and a hearing of a amicable justification for claims and payments.

SPIEGEL: The Agenda 2010 reforms enclosed a introduction of reduced state assist to a long-term unemployed, a remuneration module now famous colloquially as Hartz IV. The Hartz IV complement includes a series of levers dictated to vigour recipients into looking for a job, with many of those levers withdrawal Hartz IV recipients even reduction well-off. Leftist parties like a Greens and a Left Party, dual groups with that a SPD could eventually form a ruling bloc following a Sep election, have demanded that those levers be eliminated. Do we determine with a demand?

Schulz: No, not completely. If there is bias within a Hartz IV system, afterwards we contingency have a probability to check it on a case-by-case basis.

SPIEGEL: What do we intend to do to delayed down a fast arise of rents in Germany’s vast cities?

Schulz: To foster a construction of amicable housing. we consider a law upheld to delayed down a arise of rents is a good idea, yet it doesn’t work to a sufficient degree, in partial given a CDU and a CSU have blocked required improvements. For a long, prolonged time, we have ceded a whole genuine estate bend to speculators. That was wrong. It was also hapless that state subsidies for residential construction were prolonged frowned on as supervision charity.

SPIEGEL: Still, we have to indicate out that roughly all that we are now criticizing was upheld with a assistance of a SPD, including a passing of amicable housing construction.

Schulz: Construction Minister Barbara Hendricks (SPD) has prolonged given begun revitalizing a amicable housing construction program. Having a place to live is a elemental right and a state contingency settle a horizon that ensures that apartments are affordable. But it is scold that we need some-more bravery than we have shown in new years.

SPIEGEL: Courage?

Schulz: The construction of amicable housing and a try to support families seeking to buy their possess homes are all projects from a 1960s and ’70s. It all sounds old-fashioned, yet it is indeed totally modern.

SPIEGEL: What characteristics contingency a bold chancellor claimant have?

Schulz: To not consider tactically. To not constantly think: If we contend this, afterwards you’ll be in trouble. And if we contend that, a others will be unhappy. People are sleepy of that kind of thing. we wish to acquit myself from that kind of thinking. It is also bold to spasmodic acknowledge that there are certain things one can’t do. Or to say: we don’t nonetheless have a extensive taxation plan. But I’m operative on it.

SPIEGEL: What is a limit commission of votes that a SPD can wish to accept in a arriving election?

Schulz: An extensive majority.

SPIEGEL: And now, what is your critical answer?

Schulz: No idea. we wish that we will be means to remonstrate a lot of people that we are a best celebration in this duration of upheaval. We will do improved than stream surveys show. And those surveys are, in fact, trending in a certain direction.

Election polls: A Spark of Hope

SPIEGEL: What can we do improved than Angela Merkel?

Schulz: we don’t know. we am usually meditative about how we can win over a extended infancy for me and for my policies.

SPIEGEL: But we do intend to benefaction yourself as an choice to a chancellor.

Schulz: CDU conduct Angela Merkel has attempted for years to offer dual sides: a regressive side by holding adult her CDU celebration membership. But afterwards during a same time she acts as yet she were also a Social Democrat. we don’t have this hydra-headed nature. In a end, people will opinion for a Social Democratic original.

SPIEGEL: Donald Trump was successful in reaching out to those American organisation and women who have been left behind — a workers and normal people who used to opinion for a Democrats. What can a SPD learn from Donald Trump’s electoral success?

Schulz: People contingency once again be means to trust that Social Democratic politicians know a lives they live. we can contend that of myself. we know their problems: a problems of those who work hard, who contingency worker away. The couples who have dual incomes yet who can though hardly cover their rent. The people who get stranded in trade on their proceed to work. The people who have to wait in vain for a sight to come usually as they are ostensible to be picking adult their children from daycare. we can contend with a transparent demur to those people: we know your problems. And we will do all we can to diminution them.

SPIEGEL: Can we also learn something from a proceed in that Trump led his campaign?

Schulz: Yes. That one shouldn’t run such a debate underneath any circumstances. What baseness! The overstepping of all end required for a elemental accord of democracy! It takes my exhale away.

SPIEGEL: Do we trust that Trump is a risk to democracy?

Schulz: Very many so. A chairman who brings a former conduct of a disturbed nonconformist Breitbart News into a National Security Council is gambling with a reserve of a Western world. Donald Trump contingency be taken seriously. He is fulfilling his dangerous debate promises.

SPIEGEL: Horst Seehofer, a conduct of a CSU, recently praised accurately this aspect of Trump’s leadership.

Schulz: That dismayed me. If we, like Horst Seehofer, no longer decider a calm of people’s actions, yet merely their form, afterwards we are entering dangerous times indeed.

SPIEGEL: How should Germany conflict to Trump?

Schulz: With a genuine strengthening of a EU. Trump has a transparent goal: a multiplication of Europe and a drop of a European domestic market. The fact that Brexit proselytizer Nigel Farage was a initial European he perceived in his building speaks volumes. That is given we contingency strengthen a European domestic marketplace and work even some-more closely together in Europe. That is positively mandatory for Germany.

SPIEGEL: Do we consider that Angela Merkel has so distant struck a scold chord with honour to Trump?

Schulz: Trump is a openly inaugurated boss of a U.S. and as such deserves respect. But she can't sojourn wordless in a face of actions that we can't accept. Gerhard Schröder offering a transparent German NEIN to an American president’s fight of charge that was in defilement of general law. That took courage. Ms. Merkel did not join him during a time. If Trump now starts to take a wrecking round to a set of values, we contingency contend clearly: That is not a approach.

SPIEGEL: What will a long-term consequences be of Trump’s new transport anathema on a adults of 7 essentially Muslim countries?

Schulz: Such a universal comment of people is unacceptable. we find it shocking, quite for a republic which, some-more than any other, always stood for freedom, toleration and immigration. (……) For a United States of all countries to emanate such a direct shows that we are vital by an momentous shift. If we aren’t careful, a facile foundations of a pluralistic democracy will be threatened.

SPIEGEL: How would we bargain with Trump were we to turn chancellor?

Schulz: It is unfit to swear an promise to a German Basic Law but realizing that a structure is among a many magnanimous constitutions in a world. As a conduct of supervision in such a country, we would mount adult to all those who call into doubt this free, open and passive indication of society.

SPIEGEL: What privately would we contend to Trump?

Schulz: we would make it transparent to him: Your proceed will never be a approach. What a U.S. supervision is now starting is a strife of cultures. We should proceed this strife with courage and say: We have a opposite governmental model. We have a opposite bargain of democracy, as do a infancy of electorate in a U.S. We contingency now, in a 21st century, strengthen democracy, one that rests on elemental rights for all, regardless of skin color, gender, competition or religion. Nothing reduction than that is during stake.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Schulz, we appreciate we for this interview.

Article source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/interview-with-german-chancellor-candidate-martin-schulz-a-1133475.html#ref=rss